Cabby's Valmet!

Cabhammer's new Finnish bolt gun forum!

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Tom Doniphon
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Cabby's Valmet!

Post by Tom Doniphon » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:10 am

O.K. Cabby lets see those Valmet Nagants! I would like to have every one post sources for rifles (since I want one).

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Post by Cabhammer » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:59 am

Right now they can be had at a number of the '03 FFL direct sources:

http://www.southernohiogun.com/
These are shown in their print catalog.

Also:
Finn full length 91/30s:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Finn ... ifles.html

Empire:
http://www.empirearms.com/Finn-1891.htm

and their main pages has m39s:
http://64.82.96.51/rifles.htm

There are also a few on gunbroker and auctionarms.

Things to watch for:
-Buy one that the bore has not be counterbored at the muzzle.
-Stay away from bubba-ized M39s, those guys are ruining a good thing.
-Some people do not understand corrosive ammo. Buy from a reputable source and check the bore first thing. Frost is OK and will probably shoot clean, red pitting rust is bad.
-While there are many matching numbers rifles, many rifles were arsenal rebuilt and may have a mixture of parts.
-Buy ammo now! Recently it has been as low as $0.07 a round, but with .223 and .308 drying up, the heavy users (machine gun owners) are now nuking away the last of the cheap x54r. Note that most commercial loads are not nearly as hot as the military ones (for your "safety") so for real accurate shooting and sight calibration, get the military stuff. Mine likes Czech silvertip light ball (~150gr). Others have also reported good results with heavy ball (174-200gr).
-For the love of Mannerheim, do NOT bubba these guns! Mine will be more valuable of course, but they really deserve to be shot and enjoyed as issued.
-Finn guns have heavier barrels and better triggers than standard M-Ns and will probably surprise you on the range. On the other hand, they have the same short punishing bolt throw as regular M-Ns and sometimes the only way to primary extract is the whack the bolt knob as hard as you can.


The main resource for info is:
http://7.62x54r.net/

Good Luck!
I will post some pictures of mine soon, I need to get them out of the socks....

-Cabby

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Tom Doniphon
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Post by Tom Doniphon » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:18 pm

What differences are there in the Finnish Nagants compared to other Nagants or are they mechanically the same?

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Post by AGG » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:17 am

Thanks for the valuable information, Cabby!

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Post by Cabhammer » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:04 pm

Tom Doniphon wrote:What differences are there in the Finnish Nagants compared to other Nagants or are they mechanically the same?
Definitely read the resource at the 7.62x54r site, there is a LOT of history and info there, right down to markings.

I will summarize:
1) Finn stocks on the M24, M27, M28, M28/30, and M39 rifles are heavier and usually pieced together from 2 pieces of wood. The Finns had severe resource problems in getting long stock wood. However, master craftsmen did the stock splicing using "teeth", biscuits and some other novel Scandanvian cabinetmaking techniques. The quality of the work is excellent. The Finns would even expertly patch or plug and bad spot in the wood. No stock was ecery thrown away. I prize the patchwork stocks alot, it gives the guns a lot of character and history. One big difference is that the Finns used and preferred a "C" target type pistol grip on their stocks compared to the normal "S" pistol grip most other Mosins had.

2) Barrels. M28 rifles have in many cases Steyr barrels on them. My example saw serice in no less the 7 countries between its build date of 1897 and the M28 type rebuild in 1931 into a Civil Guard Rifle. The Finn rebuilt Mosins use heavier barrels with some would say more accurate rifling and tighter chamber tolerances than Russian guns. M28/30 rifles are actually bored to .308 rather than the normal .311. As a result the Finns made there own version of the x54r round called the 7.62x53r. You can still find it occasionally. It is identical to x54r ammo except for the .308 bullet. In most cases you can still fire .311 ammo in a 28/30 but accuracy may suffer. On the other hand I think that x53r ammo in any Finn Mosin probably works just fine.

3) Sights. The Finns recalibrated and in many cases replaced altogether the sights on many rebuilds. Russian guns are calibrated in arshins or "steps", the Finns went to meters. The Finns also sturdied up the sights and use more positive and robust mechanisms than the originals. Calibrated more for direct fire than the turn of the century volley fire type sights. Finn front sights are 90 times more durable than Russian ones and include sight ears and adjustability.

4) Triggers. The Finns replaced the triggers of most M-Ns with a target type trigger which has long very light takeup/creep and a crisp finish. Many M-N triggers grind through to the end. Finns triggers are MUCH nicer.

5) Magazines. The Finns modified many of the magazines to be more positive in the guided the rounds.

6) Slings/attachments. The Finns had a number of different sling arrangements from M24 Bicycle Troop rifles to M27 Ski Troop Rifles. They understood the need to secure the weapon during heavy movement in such a way as to not cripple the carrier so that he was ineffective by the time he translated into the battle.

7) Bayonets. Finns used different bayonets and really did not "use" them since every Finn possesses a puuko knife. In fact they scrapped most fo the M39 bayonets originally made in WW2 such that a M39 Bayonet costs as much as or more than the M39 rifle itself ($300+). There are some nice replicas out there and they are more my speed ($70).

8) Character. Many Finns guns were guns that were used by the Russians in WWI. Captured by the Axis (Hungary/Austria) used and then surplused on the market to Finland, used during the 1918 civil war the rebuilt in time for WW2 and in some cases rebuilt again during WW2 and then after WW2 as they were stocked into reserve. Nagants were rebuilt as late as 1970 before finally all of them were surplused (and brought here) in the last ten years or so. Not many guns can claim to have been in so many placing fighting for so many things....

Hope this helps. The other site has LOTs of dates and details. Most of the pictures are pretty good too, letting you see the different variations. Many Finns are Mixmasters since they were rebuilt so many times.

I am trying to get a hold of a Sako Gear logo M39 right now. Next after that is a M27 Ski Troop rifle with dual sling slots.

-Cabby

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Tom Doniphon
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Post by Tom Doniphon » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:09 pm

That is some great info! I have put one on my list. Now which one to get first...........

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Post by CelticSword » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:28 am

Went shopping last weekend at my local military FFL. He had two crates of Mosin-Nagants in. After looking thru the boxes, I passed up on buying one because none had the Finnish stamp on them.

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Post by Cabhammer » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:30 pm

Most models of Finn Nagant will be very noticeable due to the heavy wood, pistol grip stock, square nose and ear protected front sights. There are some standard 91/30 guns that are Finn that the only way to tell is to see the proofs on the barrel/receiver or the "SA" stamp.

I still see them at shows, but usually for $250-300. Empire arms has quite a few right now. I have only seen 1 at a pawn shop or local guy and I bought that one on the spot for $150... :)

-Cabby

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Post by jyri.h » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:24 am

My Finnish m39, which was made from new parts what I was able to locate last year. Gunsmith machined and installed the barrell, I did the rest.

-New unfired Tikkakoski-made m91/30 barrel which was modified to copeup with m39 sights and m39 barrelmeasurements
-m27 bolt with connectorwings
-m27 receiver with wingslots
-New uncoated birchstock, I coated it with Hoppes nr.9
-New sights(front&rear)
-used, reblued m39 magazine, follower&buttplate
-New barrelbands, sling & nosecap
-New cleaningrod

Image

Image

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Cabhammer
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Post by Cabhammer » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:16 am

Nice rebuild!

However, I tend to prefer the rifles with teethmarks in the stock where they were applied forcefully to a Russian skull. A little rough tells me that a Finn gun got used rather than toted around.

-Cabby
Last edited by Cabhammer on Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tom Doniphon » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:49 pm

I missed one at the show today for $200 today. It had an octagon receiver. I met the guy who bought it and he has 200 of them. Dang, 200 and all Finns! I am going to go see them next week.

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Post by Tom Doniphon » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:37 pm

I actually took out my Russian 91\30 today. We got it sighted in and had a lot of fun doing it. I am really looking forward to getting a Finn Nagant. I think I may have found a nice one for about $225.

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Well now you have me interested in a Finn Nagant also

Post by nib » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:54 am

While wating for my semi PKM being built. I am getting tired of looking at this pile of 54r. I guess I will be getting one of these also.

From what I can tell there are no sniper versions of this rifle and nothing but fake fake 91/30 snipers out there. Does anyone know how to tell a fake sniper mount from a real one. Are there any importers that actually had origional / rebuilt origional snipers imported.
I just need a 76 milled folder in 7.62 x 39. and I swear to GOD I will stop.

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Post by Cabhammer » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:46 pm

There are quite a few posts on this in the C&R e-mail list and on some of the other forums. It primary has to do with the year of the rifle vs. the type of mount on it. However the "fakes" or reproductions like Century is selling are still a pretty good deal for ALOT less money than a provinanced sniper.

-Cabby

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Post by Robert @ RTG Parts » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:47 am

Cabhammer wrote: 8) Character. Many Finns guns were guns that were used by the Russians in WWI. Captured by the Axis (Hungary/Austria) used and then surplused on the market to Finland, used during the 1918 civil war the rebuilt in time for WW2 and in some cases rebuilt again during WW2 and then after WW2 as they were stocked into reserve. Nagants were rebuilt as late as 1970 before finally all of them were surplused (and brought here) in the last ten years or so. Not many guns can claim to have been in so many placing fighting for so many things....

-Cabby
have a VKT 91 that has a Czechoslovakian acceptance stamp on the receiver. How common or rare would that be? I had a choice between a beautiful VKT and one that looks like it survived both the winter war and the continuance war....I choose the beater for the Czech marking.
www.RobertRTG.com for all your HK & MG Parts at amazingly low prices

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